Sasza Lohrey 

Vanessa Marin is a licensed psychotherapist whose mission is to help people stop being embarrassed and ashamed of sex and to start having a lot more fun in the bedroom. In the first episode we discuss female orgasm, how to transform the ways we approach sex, why women really need to stop faking orgasms, and how focusing on the experience of sex itself rather than the performance of it allows it to be so much more fulfilling and pleasurable. Thanks so much for joining us today on the show.

Vanessa Marin  

Thanks for having me.

Sasza Lohrey  

I guess right off the bat, if you could just kind of explain to everybody what exactly it is that you do, what you focus on and kind of what journey you try to take your clients on through your work.

Vanessa Marin 

I am a licensed psychotherapist. Specializing In sex. So I like to say that it’s my mission to help people stop feeling embarrassed and ashamed of sex and start having a lot more fun in the bedroom. So that overarching theme really fits into a lot of the work that I do. I work with clients in a number of different ways. I do coaching over video chat, and even over email, and then I also have a series of online courses about the most popular topics most frequently asked questions. So those are available as well.

Sasza Lohrey 

I know you started with, I believe, the orgasm course. But I saw that you’ve expanded to quite a few ones. So I’d love to kind of hear about what the patterns have been and how people have responded and where you found more demand.

Vanessa Marin 

Absolutely. Yeah, I first got the idea for creating an online course back when I had a practice in San Francisco. I was working with people in person at the time, and I realized one day, my entire practice is full of women who are struggling to learn how to orgasm. And these are women who are really, you know, very successful, very accomplished super smart women who described themselves as being feminist and sex positive, and still really struggling with learning how to orgasm and just feeling very perplexed about why this was such a challenge for them. So I realized at a certain point, okay, I just don’t have enough bandwidth to work with all the women that are, you know, wanting help and resources and tools in this area. So I wanted to find a way that I could just spread my message on a larger scale. And at that point, I had been, you know, practicing a series of techniques and building up a specific kind of game plan that I would use whenever I would work with a client. So it felt like okay, I’m doing the same thing. It tends to come down to the same lessons over and over again. So how do I take this system that I’m developing and use it on a broader scale? So that was the original idea and they sort of thought a online course, and it seemed to be a good fit as well, because I know that sex therapy, the idea of it sounds very intimidating to most people and having to go into an office and worrying about people seeing you maybe running into a co worker in the waiting room, that kind of thing. It was just a lot for a lot of my clients. And so I thought, an online course could be a really great fit, where it could allow you to go through this system and still have access to all of my resources and coaching, but also be able to have the privacy and comfort of your own home and do this on your own schedule. So that was all where it all started. And that was with finishing school was my first course. And then I eventually created two different versions of finishing school. So there’s learning how to orgasm for women who have never had an orgasm, and then there’s orgasm with a partner for women who can orgasm on their own, but really to struggle to get there with another person. So those were the two courses that it started with. And then once I realized, okay, this is working people really like this format. I enjoy this format a lot too. Then I started building out other courses So I have a little suite of courses at this point and some pretty grand plans to add a lot more in the future. But yeah, they are on these popular topics like performance anxiety for men, increasing your libido, kind of having a healthy and happy and active sex life in a relationship. If you and your partner have different sex drives and different needs in the bedroom. I even have a 30 day sex challenge, which is all about trying new things in the bedroom with your partner. So yeah, it’s a really just great way to be able to access very concrete specific tips and game plans. But again, having that convenience of not having to go anywhere not having to talk about it out loud with a stranger.

Sasza Lohrey 

Right. And so you mentioned the difference between those two finishing school courses for women who are unable to orgasm on their own, but then women who are able to orgasm but struggle to do so with a partner and I think this is a question that comes up so frequently. And so I’d love to hear about your perspective into the why behind that and kind of what you teach through that course. And if you could give any practical tools for the people listening in to kind of how to tackle this and what tactics and what communication, mostly I imagine to put into place.

Vanessa Marin 

Yeah, so the story behind creating a finishing school orgasm with a partner, that version of it was really funny. I’m really big on feedback from my audience. So I’m always in communication with my email list, kind of asking them, what are you interested in learning about. What are you struggling with? How can I serve you? And so at a certain point I had sent out just a basic quick survey asking, okay, I want to build a new course. What do you guys want to learn about? And by far and away the response? The most popular response that I got was from women saying I can orgasm on my own, but I can’t with a partner, and I was really interested in your finishing school, but it doesn’t seem to suit my situation. So maybe there’s a different version of it. And it was hilarious to me because I realized as all these responses started pouring in, well, duh, because I’ve been through this exact situation myself, like I learned how to orgasm on my own. And then there was a very long period of time where I could not get there with another person. So I was like, I should have thought about this before I could have used this. Thank you to my audience for reminding me of this very obvious thing. So I started Yeah, I created that course. And it’s, it’s been really wonderful. It’s gotten a great reception. Again, like I was saying, I’m really big on feedback. So I do a lot of surveys after the course and it’s definitely been very, very well received and has helped a lot of women not only learn how to orgasm with their partner, but how to really transform the way that they approach sex. So it’s a very long course and it’s very in-depth. It’s really important to me to be as specific and detailed as possible because I think so much of the advice about orgasm that we do read is very basic. And you know, you hear things like well just relax and don’t think about it. 

Sasza Lohrey

Yeah, right. Do yoga.

Vanessa Marin 

Yeah, it’s it’s such an I mean, on the one hand, I’m glad that you can actually find articles these days that are about female orgasm. It’s becoming less of a taboo topic than I was. But on the other hand, it’s like God, there’s got to be more useful information that you can share with people other than just relax or have a glass of wine. Don’t think about it, just let it happen. That’s my favorite one. So yeah, you know,

Sasza Lohrey 

Right. Exactly. They’re like, don’t make it the goal and you’re like, what if, what if I want to make it the goal or not, you know, the focus shouldn’t be on it, but they’re like, just don’t, you don’t need to have an arc or something like that. Like, okay, but yeah, back to how to have one.

Vanessa Marin

So I mean, I, you know, I write a lot of articles as well for different publications like the New York Times and Allure and life hacker and all that. So I understand the constraints of trying to fit a good article into, you know, 800 to 1000 words. But yeah, I just wanted to be able to get much more nuanced and detailed and give women the resources that they actually need and the techniques that they actually need to learn this process.

Sasza Lohrey 

Perfect. And you touched on kind of how that second course spoke so much to your experiences as well. And so I was wondering if you could kind of speak to your own stories and, and what some of the most important and perhaps toughest lessons that you learned, either before even starting your practice, or throughout it.

Vanessa Marin 

Yeah, this all happened before I even started my practice. Like I said, I had learned to orgasm on my own. And then once I started, you know, having sex with partners, at the point where I started becoming more conscious of, Hey, I could get something out of this as well. I realized that it was a really big challenge for me. And I had, you know, not seen female orgasm really talked about that openly, you know, online or in magazines or anything like that. And so I just felt very lost about how I am supposed to make this happen. And I also felt very confused because at that time, I had been able to orgasm on my own for a while, and it felt very easy, like very just, you know, natural, I knew what to do to get myself there, you know. So it was very challenging to think how can something that feels so easy and straightforward on my own, be so challenging when there’s another person there with me. And so I just really didn’t have the tools that I needed. I didn’t know any techniques about how to explore this with a partner. I didn’t know how to talk about it with a partner. And then, you know, I just had all of this socialization that I think we all receive as women about the ways that we’re supposed to show up during sex with men, you know, if we were having sex with men, which was namely that you know, the guy’s pleasure is more important. And that I needed to be focused on making sure that he thought that I was good in bed and he was having a good time. And so I think like so many other women, I got really fixated on the performance aspect of sex, rather than my own experience. And that was, yeah, that really got in the way of me being able to actually enjoy the sex that I was having. So for a period of almost 10 years, I really was super focused on my partners, I faked my orgasms. And again, that was for my partners as well. I wanted my partners to think that they were good in bed, that there was good chemistry between the two of us that I was, you know, just open and free and, and all these things. So the faking, you know, even that in and of itself was for my partners as well.

Sasza Lohrey 

So, what did you do before your courses existed and you could find them for yourself?

Vanessa Marin 

Yes, this was a big challenge. So I I was totally you know, I wasn’t happy with my sex life, but it also just sort of felt like the only option for Such a long time. So I’d sort of settled into this feeling that okay, this just is how it is. And then I had one really negative experience with a partner. And this was your classic bad boy situation where I knew that, you know, this guy, I was looking for a relationship at that time, I knew that he was not into it, I knew that he was really not that into me, but I was still operating from this kind of naive hope that maybe I could convince him otherwise. And I could be that girl who would change his mind and make him a good, classic situation I know so many people can relate to. So I had this really negative experience with him, where he made a very crude comment after I had just faked an orgasm about how he was so good in bed that you know, he was just the ultimate at pleasuring me and it just really got under my skin because I thought, Man, you know, this guy thinks that he has control over my body. He’s so good at pleasuring my body. And he actually, you know, I just faked this orgasm. I wasn’t feeling very much pleasure at all. Actually, in that particular instance, I’d been feeling a little bit of pain and discomfort. So it just Yeah, really, really got under my skin. And I sort of said to myself in that, 

Sasza Lohrey 

please tell me you yelled at him.

Vanessa Marin

 I did not I just kind of made some coy little grin and you know, giggled at him and you know, that just really added to the shame that I felt around it like, Oh, God, I let this happen. So I told myself, right after that happened, I’m not going to fake it again. I’m not going to let another person think that they have all this control over my body when you know, the reality is I’m just faking it. And so I did not stick to that promise. 100% I’ll be totally honest, and but I really made it my effort or made it my mission at that point to Okay, I’m really going to put effort into figuring this out and learning what you know, learning how I can actually get there with a partner. So for me that started with stopping faking orgasms, because I realized I can’t learn how to have a real one if I’m so invested in faking it, I would be you know, and I think a lot of people can relate to this as well. Like when you fake an orgasm, you get so into the performance aspect of it. It’s not just that, oh, I’ve got to fake that 10 seconds that I’m having an orgasm. It’s like, I’ve got a build up to it and you know, be feeling increasing pleasure and more and more, and then to the point where it’s just an explosive experience. So the faking it really detracted from my entire experience, because I was so focused on that. So that was step one, for me realizing Okay, I’ve got to stop faking them.

Sasza Lohrey 

Right, that sounds so difficult and intricate. And what I try also because I think there are so many women who can probably relate to that through some of the stories I’ve heard from women who have faked orgasms. I try and remind people that if not a favor to themselves, how about To all the other women who are probably going to, at some point, have sex with this person, and also maybe deserve a partner who’s more aware of their skills or lack thereof and kind of the chance to, because it’s literally only reinforcing what’s not working and passing that on.

Vanessa Marin 

Absolutely. And I think what really needs to happen so we’d have an individual journey that women need to go on to learn what our bodies like, what we respond to how we communicate. But it’s also this piece of a much broader, like cultural revolution that needs to happen, where we realize that the ways that we approach sex, are very much favoring male pleasure and that we as women are being socialized to sabotage our ability to enjoy sex and to experience pleasure out of it. And so I use that same sort of language as well. like think about, you know, the other women who might be having sex with that person. And I know that might sound a little weird, but this idea of We need to create a culture where we’re having more open and honest conversations about female orgasm, where, you know, we’re we’re supporting other women where we’re educating men, and you know, just really transforming the entire culture around it. So it’s a Yeah, it’s a much bigger piece in that.

Sasza Lohrey 

Right? So I’d love to just kind of friendly reminder to listeners that if you are faking orgasms, you are not doing yourself any favors. You are not doing the rest of humanity any favors and it’s kind of taking away from such an incredibly important and really can be eye opening. And I don’t want to sound dramatic, but life changing learning experience and so to like, why would you take that power in that opportunity away from yourself, let alone other people. So own your own curiosity and and needs And I know that there are women too, who I’ve talked to who are in long term committed relationships where they have mentioned that they faked an orgasm because they didn’t want their partner to feel bad because it was that you know, they were anxious or distracted and it was only you know, one in 50 times that it happened or something and, but also being able to recognize that that is fine and that they don’t need to make their partner feel better and that maybe their partner also wants to feel better if they can’t orgasm 50 out of 50 times, um, and, you know, the kind of kept company in the unperfect statistics that nobody has, and again to those other people, too, that if you feel the need to fake an orgasm with the person you’re having sex with is that really, is that really a person you want to be having sex with more just, you know, you should, within your own self and in that atmosphere. feel kind of the space to be vulnerable?

Vanessa Marin 

Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of women we can get so into the habit of faking it that it almost just becomes an instinctual thing, like you start being intimate with a new person, and you just go right into that pattern. But I think it’s very important to try to be just try to get a sense of, okay, is this really the sex life that I want to lead, and I know that making orgasm very often can feel like the easier option. But there really are so many different ways that you can approach it in so many different kinds of conversations that you can have with a partner, whether this is somebody that you’re sleeping with for the very first time or it’s a partner that you’ve been with for years, and you’ve been faking it the whole time. There are definitely ways that you can have that conversation and create a better situation for yourself.

Sasza Lohrey 

Right totally and that kind of the first time I feel like people, at least these days joke about how it can, I mean, it can be mind blowing, but it can also be quite the learning process in the beginning. Thinking about how this all goes back to culture and media. And what if in the movies, you know, we started seeing scenes where instead of it’s two strangers, no foreplay. Two minutes, everybody’s having orgasms all over the place multiple times for the entire night. If instead, you know, there was this whole build up and then kind of this more realistic, like, Well, you know, wasn’t bad, but maybe, you know, we weren’t expecting that, you know what, it’s just nothing you see in the movies. So, in a way it feels like obviously in a very different way, but to me it feels like movies in terms of what a real relationship can be. Sometimes beyond sex, but can be almost as disillusioning as porn is for sex movies can be for relationships. 

Vanessa Marin 

Oh, for sure, Yeah. And I have to give a little shout out to the film festival which is run by Dan Savage. I’ve been going to this for a while and it’s basically an independent Film Festival of porn movies and it’s all made by you know, people who are just amateurs not actual porn actors or professionals or anything like that. And it’s such an interesting experience because you’ll go to this theater, the movies are like less than five minutes long. So they show about 20 different ones. And they the whole goal of this film festival is to show sex that’s more authentic and more diverse than what we see in porn and in the movies. And I just went to this a couple weeks back and so it’s really fresh in my mind right now, but I just remember it, you know, just being able to see people having sex but also talking about what they’re doing or asking for consent for what they wanted to or falling out of position or needing to make adjustments or laughing with each other. Yeah, it’s just it was such a, you know, such a breath of fresh air and so shocking and at the same time, like, wow, this is sad that just two people being normal people having totally regular sex that everybody has, this feels so different. And so revolutionary, but that really should be what we’re seeing on, you know, much more consistent basis.

Sasza Lohrey 

All right, if you can’t laugh at sex, let alone during it, you know? 

Vanessa Marin 

No, I totally agree. 

Sasza Lohrey 

Pretty hard to enjoy it. 

Vanessa Marin 

Yeah, I think so many of us have this idea you’re missing out. I think so many of us have this idea that sex has to be very serious, and we can get very perfectionistic about it. And you know, everybody wants to be good in bed. And so we can just get very, very serious about it. And the reality is that sometimes having very serious sex can be a lot of fun, but sex can also be the full range of emotional expression and being able to be playful and silly and Goofy and laughing with your partner is just as amazing as having you know, that really serious intense sex.

Sasza Lohrey 

Right so you you kind of spoke to one big misconception that that you had surrounding sex and how it was supposed to be In that a lot of other women go through as well. What other kind of big misconceptions would we say that we face today? either on an individual level or on a cultural level as a whole.

Vanessa Marin 

I think one of the most damaging ones that I see in my practice is this belief that sex is supposed to be natural and easy, and that we shouldn’t really have to put any effort into it. So I think this is sort of this is the same sort of thing as you know, that classic thing that you hear about where women want the knight in shining armor to just kind of sweep into town and, you know, just sweep you off your feet, and everything’s wonderful and beautiful. I think we’ve started developing more realistic views of relationships, that that’s not really how they work. But you know, they do take a lot of effort that it has to be a team process, but I think we’re still feeling a little a lot of that when it comes to our sex lives where there’s this idea that it a good sex life should just happen naturally. It should always be spontaneous, both partners should always feel tons of excitement and arousal and desire for each other. That section requires any communication. Like there’s so many different myths that get wrapped up in that one. But the the big overarching umbrella for all of them is this idea that sex should be easy and natural and effortless.

Sasza Lohrey 

Right. And what do you think some of the, because so much of this goes back to communication, whether or not you know, the person already knows what it is they need, or they’re looking to kind of explore that with their partner. If you have any kind of specific actionable pieces of advice or that you give to kind of your clients that you think some of the listeners could, could benefit from if they find themselves in this position of either not being able to break down the fear of communicating into the other person or Just simply, you know if they’re not exactly sure what what it is they want how they can work with the other person to kind of get to that point.

Vanessa Marin 

So the idea of what we want in the bedroom is a really interesting topic because on the one hand, I do think that we each need to have a personal exploration around what we want and what we like. And even just this general idea of what we want our sex lives to be like what we want to get out of them. And at the same time, I think this is another area where a lot of people get very perfectionistic and they think that they need to know every single little thing that they want from their partner. Like unequivocally without a doubt. These are the things that I know that I will love that you should do and you know, do them in this order, like the whole thing. So you know, it definitely does not need to be to that extent you don’t need to know yourself completely coming into your you know, into a relationship with a partner into a sex life with your partner. A lot of That is going to be things that you will explore together. And a lot of it may be things that are unique to the two of you. So maybe there are certain things that you’ve never been interested in before in the past. But then you find a partner and they feel very safe to you, or they have specific interests, but you had never been with somebody who had had those same interests. And so there’s something that opens up between the two of you. So again, it’s kind of navigating this line of Yes, doing your own exploration to think about what do I like from my sex life? What do I not like in my sex life? What do I want my sex life to be like? What are the most important aspects of it for me, but not getting so perfectionistic that you think you need to have the whole thing figured out?

Sasza Lohrey

Right, which sounds kind of so impossible, and if it were the same thing every time I imagined it would get boring. But show kind of reminded me as you were saying that it seems like I tell people the same thing for relationships but also for your career. It’s so hard to know exactly what you want to do. And it’s for sure gonna change at some point and it’s gonna evolve and different circumstances in your life will also contribute to different changes that you can’t necessarily expect. But, you know, you can identify what you don’t like, and what doesn’t work and start from there. And it’s kind of that learning process, but it’s so much easier to identify what you don’t like them, what you do like and to kind of create this pattern for how it should be that you try and kind of project onto all your experiences.

Vanessa Marin

Yeah, that’s a good point. It can definitely be if you want to start with kind of this exploration of Okay, what do I know already are the things that I’m not open to in my sex life I don’t love and my sex life. You know, I haven’t had good experiences within the past. So maybe that can be the door that opens up a bigger exploration for you.

Sasza Lohrey 

Yeah, and that each partner, as you mentioned, is so different. Just like a friendship or any other relationship that you can’t expect to get the same thing from every person and you don’t go to the same friends looking for the same characteristics or experiences or emotions from them. 

Vanessa Marin 

Mm hmm. Yeah, I mean, I also like to say that there’s, there’s no such thing as being universally good in bed. So like I was saying earlier, I think a lot of us can get into this perfectionistic mindset around sex. And of course, like, everyone wants to be good in bed. But there really is no universal definition of that, like, what really works super Well, for one person might not work at all for another person. So it’s not about you know, developing this perfect set of skills. It’s about learning how to be present with whatever partner you’re with at the time and navigating what feels like great sex between the two of you and just noticing that it’s going to be very different from what might feel like great sex with a different partner.

Sasza Lohrey 

Right. I think that’s so important. What you just said.