Sasza Lohrey 

Hello, and welcome to part two of our conversation with Tina Schermer Sellers learn more on our website and social media at bbxx.world. The four elements of healing religious sexual shame going from there and how that could be for anybody in everybody. So I know that there’s a lot obviously to be overcome from people raised in kind of more traditional homes, more traditionally religious homes, and specifically, I’m wondering if there ever, for example, more positive messages that we could take away from religion in some way or in the Bible. Is there anything that we could take away from that?

Tina Schermer 

So there’s a phrase called cherry picking and that would be if you go in to any part of scraping so the Bible, New Testament Old Testament, or the Torah, or really any sacred text from any faith tradition, and you just open it up and you just dive right in, if you pulled out, outline text, and you pulled it out of context of the history and the time, and you just read a line, you could construe a particular meaning you’re gonna find all kinds of things in sacred texts, there is really so much that we don’t know there’s a whole lot we do know, but there’s so much that we don’t know and what’s so important about reading sacred texts is that you understand them in a literary kind of way, like a story. You know, like we understand so many of our so much of our good literature. We don’t just dive right in and pull out one sentence and go oh, It’s the sentence that helps me understand the whole story. No, it’s the whole story that helps me understand the value of the book. Right? When we cherry pick any scripture, we’re missing the point. Yes, you can. You can pull out lines and find things that are incredibly positive. And you can find things that are incredibly negative and painful and hurtful and all kinds of things and, and people have cherry picked the Christian scripture in very, very hurtful ways, and justified horrible atrocities across history.

Sasza Lohrey 

So in terms of, you know, scripture and religious texts, I’m wondering how much the messages have changed in the culture associated with it in terms of this sexual shame over time, is that something that you know, has improved a lot or kind of stayed the same or gone? through different phases throughout time,

Tina Schermer 

I think it’s definitely gone through different phases. And when you what i what i call lift up at the 30,000 foot level and looked at history across time, what you see is is that the church as a whole, the western Church has been very, very influenced by the socio political climate of what was happening at the time that it was functioning within, for example, in the last 3040 years, we’ve been in a very conservative kind of frame or kind of time, we had the Moral Majority and the religious rights in a socio political framework kind of came together. There has been this big sort of fear mongering that’s been happening and the church has been a part of that with the Moral Majority. There was an economic downturn, there was a reaction to second wave feminism. You In the early 80s, and we had a reaction to the AIDS crisis that happened in the mid 80s. And whenever you have times like this, we’ve haven’t had plagues in the past that capitalization of the fear with the public has been a great place to move in and control the larger public. And underneath all of that was this real push in capitalism. So that’s a socio political movement. And manipulation of people through fear has moved us into a very harsh political conservative movement that we’ve been in for the last 30 plus years that is restricted our research, it’s restricted the knowledge base that has moved among the people and we’ve been a very frightened people that hasn’t really lost learned very much we’ve been much more ignorant in the way that we’ve made decisions. And you can see that movement from more conservative, more fear based, more reactive to less conservative, more awareness, more knowledge, more relaxed, more education, kind of more caring for our poor, this kind of movement open too close to open to close and the church also being a part of that through time and history. The church is influenced much more socio politically that I think it recognizes that it is, but when you look at history from really high up, you can see the church follows the socio political movements of the time.

Sasza Lohrey 

So stepping back in time quite far and now stepping outside of Catholicism as well. I’d love to have you touch a bit on the valve owner, which you guys kind of discovered in your research that you were doing the right book This is something that you talked about at a sec conference. And I will tell you, I took a photo of this slide and sent it to minimum 10 people on the spot and just said, Why? Where is this? Why don’t we still have this today? And why did he want 1000 years ago and then disappear when it’s everything?

Tina Schermer 

But yes, I went. I asked the question on the Abrahamic line, which was the line of there’s one God, you know, the Abrahamic line, I said, well did. Was there ever sex positivity anywhere? And when I asked that question, I went deep into Hebrew mystic writing and Hebrew sacred writing, and I found some incredible sex positive writing. Like one story was inside the Holy of Holies, which is a sacred part of the Jewish temple. All Jewish temples have a holy of holies. It’s an area where the Ark of the Covenant is and where these staffs are on top of each staff and on top of the Ark of the Covenant are always depictions of these angels with these cherub M and the cherubim. They have wings on them. And the wings are often in different sort of configurations. And the way I was taught was that the wings were always out showing how God was always protecting the people. And so I just always thought, well, the terrible always look just one way and then I found out that the cherubim were always in different depictions. So showing a different aspect of God’s character. And then I found out that the chairman in the very last temple that was destroyed in 72 ad, which was just after Jesus death, what we’re actually in seeded sexual embrace, and that the rabbi’s would once a year Paul, aside, because the rabbi’s were the only ones that could go into this very sacred place. The people could not go in there. They were pulled aside this very, very heavy curtain. And they would show the people the chair BAM and the ark. And they would say to the people this and they would point to the chairman, this is so you can know that God loves you like a lover and longs for you like a lover. And when I read that I was so shocked that I needed to find it in three other sources before I would tell anybody, because I thought no one would believe me that this is actually in sacred texts, you know. And I thought, Christians, no matter what kind of Christian they are, they would think of God so differently, rather than a father some patriarchal figure. They would think of God so differently if they thought of God longing for them like a lover, because that’s a peer longing kind of relationship rather than a more top down kind of relationship. And it would help you think of sexuality different If you thought that God longed for you like a lover, and then you look at the Song of Songs, which is this beautiful erotic book right in the center of the Old Testament in the Torah, and that is a book that’s just all about longing and deep, deep love. And then I came across a first century Rabbi that said that the Jewish people believe that the whole Torah is to serve the Song of Songs, in other words, the Song of Songs they thought of as the Most Holy Book of the whole Torah, and that all of the Torah was to remind you of the Song of Songs, that you are beloved of God. Now, if you grow up a Christian of any kind of any ilk, you will be hard pressed to ever hear a pastor talk about the Song of Songs because they don’t know what to do with it. Because it’s such an erotic book and yet, you have Jewish rabbis from the very first century saying this is the most Holy Book of the whole Torah. So I was coming across story after story after story after story, saying, we have an erotic God who gave us our sexuality. So we might know how loved we are. And we might experience in our sexuality, something of God’s love. Like to me, I was falling over myself all over the place. And then I found the valve. And the valve owner is these like eight guidelines. And men still take this bow when they get married, and so I’ll read them all forms of sexual touch are to be recognized and valued, the purpose of all sexual touches to reinforce the loving bond over the lifespan. So the idea that the elderly were not sexual is a completely foreign concept in the Torah. And I’ve talked to many Orthodox Jews who’ve said, Oh, yeah, no, we totally expect that people who are bonded to each other committed to each other will remain sexual their whole life like this is an important part of life. The third one is sex is considered a woman’s right. And not a man’s. The husband yeah has a duty, the valve owner, to ensure that all forms of sexual touch are pleasurable to her. They are to bring her pleasure and joy. He has to study and learn from her. This one is, you know, rocks everyone’s world, right? Because it’s so counter intuitive, and counter Western culture, because we raise our boys to think that sex is all about them. And we raise our girls to think that sex is all about him.

Sasza Lohrey 

I just literally can’t get over it. Like where did this go?

Tina Schermer 

Well, and I have explained this, that there’s the obvious shock in this but there is something so powerfully elegant in as well, because in a culture like ours that does give that message that it’s all about man, we actually do men no favors with that message. And we do women no favors with that message. Because men naturally lean in that direction. And women naturally lean in that direction. Part of partly because of culture and partly because of how our brains are structured. So with this idea, what happens is, that instead, we raise our boys to begin to pay attention to the nuances of others from the time that he’s a child on and we raise our girls to pay attention to how they’re treated and what their passions are, and what their voice is. From the time she’s a girl, little girl up so what happens in our culture Right now when we don’t do those things, is we have to wait until a man is often in his 50s before he begins to naturally realize that what makes all that hard work he’s been doing in his life and in his career, really matter for him is his relationships. And we have to wait till a woman gets almost into her 50s before she realizes what makes all of her life really make sense, is not giving everything away to everyone else, but that she has purpose in this world so she has a voice she has something to contribute, other than just doing for everyone else. But when we raise our boys to pay attention to others from the time he’s little, and we raise our girls to know her passion and her voice and to pay attention now she’s treated. Now we have half a chance that our boys and girls in heterosexual relationships will have much more more egalitarian relationships in their 30s and we know from research that a gala terian relationships are so much more satisfying for people than hierarchical relationship. It’s brilliant, and it works in the human experience. The fourth one is sex is to be celebrated in joy, not in sadness, anger, disinterested self interest or when chemically influenced. Sex for selfish or personal satisfaction without regard to your partner’s pleasure is considered wrong, or evil, and the word evil is rarely used in the Torah. A man is never to force his wife to be sexual through emotional or physical tactics. Sex is not to be used as a weapon against a spouse either by depriving sex or compelling sex. It is considered a serious offense to use sex in any way to manipulate or punish a partner. So that really gets both Have those get to consent issues, which of course we don’t teach in the US sexual enjoyment is recommended also at times when procreation is impossible, and you know, that’s something we have had laws against, you know, the last one is all forms of sexual touch are permissible as long as they’re desired by both people. So it really doesn’t matter what goes on in your bedroom, if you’re both okay with it. Nobody needs to be in there telling you what you can do and what you can’t do. And again, we’ve had laws on the books and we still have laws in the books in some states in our country that tell you what you can and can’t do in your bedroom. And that’s baloney.

Sasza Lohrey 

Right? And that’s how non judgmental we were 1000 years ago. And I think exactly the words that you said brilliant and elegant and especially when you touched on, you know the importance of relationships and realizing that value in in your life because that is exactly kind of what we are trying to help people reach Realize and live out is that your close relationships are responsible for 70% of your happiness 90% of your wellness and you know, I’d say almost 100% of your fulfillment in life. So we’re really just trying to provide any information about how to live better relationships, how to live a better life as a result, and one of our value propositions is that we are not just for women, because we truly try to strive to make this equally for men and women and you know, half of our clients and listeners being men, because it does seem like they get left out a lot of these conversations. And for me, these conversations aren’t getting anywhere. We know half the population on board and you know, arguably, it’s hard to even say who would be more important for any of, you know, the strives and the progress that we want to make and how important it is to have this be a collaborative you know, education, collaborative realization, a collaborative effort, and again, going back to like, what Peggy orange Teams said about, you know, in these places where the education is different Dutch boys are raised, assuming that they are capable of giving love just that is I’m inherently capable of giving love. My default is love. And then in the US, we end up with this culture where your default is I’m not capable of giving love. And then if you know I’m not capable of having casual sex, or I feel like I’m falling in love, boys are raised to think, Oh, well, I’m the left out one. I’m the weird one. I’m the one who’s unhealthy where it’s like, oh my god, I know. It’s our culture that’s unhealthy. So I’m in total agreement with what you mentioned previously, so incredibly important.

Tina Schermer 

Yeah, I’ve been reading this summer, Bell Hooks book, The will to change which is about masculinity and love. And you know, just reminded that we have done men no favors at all. And a man we know we’ve done women, no favors. We Done men no favors. And we’ve done relationships, no favors. And it’s true. You know, I worked in oncology for 10 years and what you care about at the end of your life is how well you give and receive love. That’s it. That’s the only thing you care about, and where we hurt people with sexual shame as we hurt them in that place of being able to give and receive love. And that’s why it’s so important that we start to get sex education out there. We start to really listen to where people have experienced sexual shame. We help people heal sexual shame. We help people facilitate their ability to give love and to receive love to have fulfilling relationships in their life and to be able to call out where bs is happening in culture, so people can live the lives they want to live. Yeah, the work we do is so important and I think

Sasza Lohrey 

says it says it all and that can have realization having good scientific evidence to that truly the loving feel in your life and then you give us everything. And as I always say that if you have one minute left to live in your life, and your entire life flashes before your eyes, it would be the faces of all the people that you love most it would be moments of you holding them smiling, laughing, being together, sharing and receiving love. And that’s how your entire life would be summed up like nothing else. And just think it’s, it’s incredible. So I guess going off of all this amazing is kind of in conclusion with all that we’ve learned and all that, you know, you’ve learned in your research and everything, regardless of religion or not, what’s going to be the one message that you would want to send to everybody, like a takeaway from what you’ve learned, in addition to what we just went over, but also kind of actionable piece of advice for them to kind of take that piece of learning and incorporate it and live it out in their life,

Tina Schermer 

I guess I would say, to really see, to pay attention to how you think about yourself, listen to the tapes in your mind of how you think about yourself, as a sexual being as a person, and pay attention to how you’re receiving love and how you’re giving love. I think all of us can wear masks in the world, but you, you who you are as a person, you are beloved, exactly the way you are now for what you do, not for what you don’t do, but who you are. Just the way you are, is Beloved. You don’t need to change anything. And even though we get thousands and thousands of messages that tell us that we’re not okay, the way we look, what we’ve done, how we’re working, what you know, all these things we need to change that is marketing. So I think that if I would give anybody any message, it’s that to pay attention to what’s going on in your own head that might want to be letting you know that you’re not okay, that you’re unworthy of love and belonging, which is what shame says to us, and that will likely be somewhere in your sexuality too. And our sexuality needs to be a place of love and of healing, and of nourishment. So I think to just be working on soaking up that belief that you are beloved, and that you deserve to experience beloved newness in every area of your life, including your sexuality, and where that’s a struggle. You know, I would encourage people to read my book and to keep on that good work. Keep on that good struggle. Frame name, claim and aim and tell yourself you can keep embracing your beloved ness because you want your ability to love to grow, to both give love and to receive love to grow because that’s where your happiness lies. 

Sasza Lohrey 

 And I think that’s so true how you said, you know the those four elements and I mentioned earlier how they’re not even just applicable to you know, sexuality, let alone just shame but your identity in general and I loved what you said about really needing to kind of nourish them, because it’s not like any of this happens easily. You know, people think, oh, there’s something wrong with me there’s something this No, it’s just that it’s not easy. You know, self acceptance is really hard. Relationships aren’t so difficult, but half because we simply weren’t given the tools and the knowledge that we need. Once we have that it really doesn’t necessarily have to be that way. I mean, they still will be hard, but they are always worth it. So I just love that message. Thank you so much for being on the show with us today everybody again, Dr. Tina Schermer Sellers. 

Tina Schermer 

Thank you for having me. 

Sasza Lohrey 

And, we look forward to continuing the conversation with you. 

Tina Schermer

Great, thanks so much love being here.